330: Grow Your Business in 3 Phases with James Green

James Green, CEO of Cognome and former Pixar executive under Steve Jobs, is driven by a deep curiosity and a pull toward ideas that can create massive impact. From early internet ventures to mobile innovation and now AI in healthcare, James has consistently aligned himself with transformative trends. In this episode, he shares hard-earned lessons from scaling multiple companies and introduces a simple but powerful framework that explains why many startups struggle to grow beyond their early stages.

We explore James’ 3-Stage StartUp Growth Framework: Whiteboard Phase, PowerPoint Phase, PDF Phase—a model that captures how organizations must evolve as they scale. He explains why early-stage chaos is necessary, how structure begins to take shape in the middle phase, and why standardization becomes critical at scale. James also dives into the toughest leadership challenges—especially making difficult people decisions—and shares why aligning with strong market tailwinds and creating “pull” from customers is essential for sustainable growth.

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Grow Your Business in 3 Phases with James Green

Good day, dear listeners. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint, and my guest today is James Green, the CEO of Cognome, a health tech company that is solving the problem of how to manage different AI models that are being deployed in healthcare today. Earlier, he worked as a vice president at Disney. He worked directly under Steve Jobs at Pixar, and he has had at least six other CEO roles in ed tech, media, and healthcare. Welcome to the show, James.

Thank you very much. Delighted to be here.

Yeah, super excited. And Steve Jobs—you don’t often have people that have known Steve Jobs now even Tim Cook has resigned.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it’s 13 years, I guess. Steve Jobs is being gone. So what was it like working with the man? Was he a difficult boss?

First of all, most of the things you hear about him are accurate. So it’s not one of these things where you hear a lot about Steve Jobs and actually the man was totally different. So most of what you’ve heard is true. And I’ll give you one short anecdote sort of before we go on, which is something that I always found incredibly impressive about him. When you work for him, if you disagreed and said, “Hey, you want it to be white, I want it to be black,” without hesitation he would say something like, “Here are seven reasons why you’re wrong.” First of all, before we go into those seven reasons, what’s impressive about that is he had a number and he stuck with it.

And it happened in seconds and he didn’t know before. So if you think about that, it’s hard to keep all of that in your head. So the guy was just super, super clever. And then he would list them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and you’d be out. Like it’s done. It’s like, “Oh, damn.” So yeah, he was unbelievable human, and it was an honor and a privilege to have worked with him.

Yeah, well, that’s awesome—to talk to you, having worked with him and having some direct experience. Definitely not an easy boss when he has seven guns to shoot you down.

Yeah.

But there’s a lot to learn. I mean, you learn the most from these kinds of bosses.

Yeah.

So let’s get into the question—which is normally the first one, but this is the exception: What is your personal “why,” and how are you manifesting it in Cognome, James, and in your previous jobs?

Yeah, I’ve thought about this a lot. I’ve tried to come up with what my “why” really is. And what I’ve come up with is I can’t help myself. And I’m going to go through examples of it and what I mean by that. I pay a lot of attention to the world. I pay a lot of attention to what’s going on. I get very seduced by new ideas and new things and things that I think will have big impact. And once I start thinking about it and thinking about what that impact is, I cannot help but start getting involved in it. That sounds very abstract, so I want to try to make that super concrete. So when I was working at Pixar, for example—the internet was being born. This is the late ’90s.

I couldn’t help myself. I started an ad-serving company called Sabela Media. That company got sold to 24/7, then to DoubleClick, which later got acquired by Google. So the internet was there. I had to do it. I had to have something in it. Then after that, I was thinking about what to do next—and mobile phones, if you remember, were still flip phones, mostly used for texting. The second company that I did was putting content onto those phones. It just seemed obvious to me—I couldn’t help myself. I saw the opportunity, and it clearly worked. That company was called GiantBear. It was sold to BlueCora. After that, there was this crazy innovation going on in television of all things with effects.

Now, again, we take these things for granted. We’ve got AI creating things all day long, back in the day, we didn’t. So I ran a company called PVI, which is famous for inventing the first-down line you see in football games. So that was kind of the very first virtual object you saw in live things. Again, it may seem like, oh, that’s an everyday event, but back in the day it was totally not. And I think it opened up football to many more people—you no longer needed the chain crew to understand what was going on. And then if we fast-forward—there are a few things in the middle, but I don’t want to bore everyone—to where I am today at Cognome. I even wore my little Cognome shirt so I could advertise it throughout the podcast.

Yeah, that’s smart. I have to do that.

AI is clearly the big thing today. But for me, intellectually, it’s not enough to just say, “I’ll do an AI model,” like everyone else. For me, healthcare is one of the areas that AI will have the biggest impact with. Healthcare for a lot of reasons has been a laggard technologically for specific things about how they store data, so it hasn’t been adopted things like multi-tenant SaaS, because the data has to stay local and things like this. So AI will revolutionize it. And AI will make decisions about whether people live or die, right? So it’s really consequential. And for me, the question is—how are you going to manage that? That’s a super interesting intellectual opportunity. And so Cognome ExplainerAI. So my “why” is: what’s going on, what’s interesting, and what’s changing the world? And the beautiful thing about that is you get a “rising tide lifts all boats” situation. You’re not fighting against a trend—you’re moving with it. The whole world is rising, and you can be part of that. That’s sort of my “why”.

Yeah, so basically—in other words—it’s about coming up with revolutionary ideas and implementing them?

Yeah. I mean, I want to make an impact in the world. I want to make a difference. I’m not a very religious person—in fact, not at all. So I believe our time here is limited. I want to make a difference. I want to be part of what’s going on. So yeah, that’s my “why.”

Yeah—tapping into trends. Well, that’s great. I mean, don’t know if it’s a “why,” but making the most of the opportunity to be here and maximizing impact—that’s a huge one. Love it.

Yeah.

STEVE PREDA: So let me segue to the next one. This podcast is all about frameworks. So the objective here is what’s a shortcut that you can teach the listeners that they can implement in their business? So what is your “shortcut” to success? Maybe “shortcut” is the wrong word. What is the framework you use to interpret the world, understand it better, and make decisions?

Yeah, this is another thing I struggled with a little bit. So I listened to your questions, and I tried to make my answers really personal. I’m trying to be authentic—this is what I actually do all the time, as opposed to this is what I’m doing at the moment, or this is what I did for a second. The truth is, frameworks come and go. There are a lot of frameworks out there. I’ve probably used 15 different sales frameworks. I mostly operate in the B2B world, so there are lots of frameworks you can use—for example, in sales. But I tried to think of something more consistent—a framework I’ve used across every company I’ve worked with, all the time. And the one I always come back to is about growth. So what I want to talk about is: how do you manage a company that’s going through growth?

Because it’s not obvious—and I do have a framework for it. And unlike some of the other frameworks—like something McKinsey, Bain, or someone’s invented this framework and you are adopting it. This is really pretty personal to me, and I’ve adopted various little things about it. There are these two ideas that live in parallel. One is in the sales process, where I think companies go through this idea of, I call it a Whiteboard sales process, a PowerPoint sales process. And forgive me for being a little dated, but a PDF style process, something you can’t change. And at the same time, they go through these stages where you are a small company, a medium-sized company, and a larger company. Think of it roughly as fewer than 12 people, then 10 to 75, and then 75 to 100 and beyond. And I’ve managed all of these sizes. And what’s interesting about these is that if you don’t have a framework to manage yourself through these stages, you’re going to fail. You as a leader will be replaced. I personally have replaced leaders who cannot go through those kinds of things.

One of the things I’ve done in my career is act as a sort of hired gun for VCs. They make an investment, and then they bring me in to replace the founder if they haven’t been able to navigate that growth stage. And so the framework works like this. When you’re starting a company—what I call the “whiteboard” phase—what you’re selling is a little different every time. And the consequence of that inside the company is everyone is doing everything. It’s a little chaotic and it’s okay. Like, less than 10 people, it’s okay. It’s okay that the finance person is doing a little selling and the engineer is doing a little marketing. It’s okay, because you only have 10 people maybe. When you go into a client, you are sort of inventing yourself as you go. There’s always that first client where you’re saying, “I think we should do this. This is how I’m going to help you make money, save money, or do something better.”

You’re figuring things out.

Yeah.

And maybe there’s some pivots in there. Maybe there isn’t. Not everyone gets to be Google and get it right the first time, but you’ll see. In the end, you start getting things right. And then you go through what I call the PowerPoint phase. So what this is—you now have more than 10 people. It kind of isn’t okay that the sales guy is doing finance, or the engineer is doing marketing. You actually have people in their swim lanes. I call it the PowerPoint because you’ve built PowerPoints, so you’ve got slides that you can use and it’s replicable. Guess what? You tend to tweak them for each client. You are still—you know what—the way you’re selling to… I don’t want to make a stupid example up—Home Depot is still a little different than selling to Lowe’s. You know that—even though it should be exactly the same—it’s still a little different. You’re tweaking it each time. You’re moving slide three to slide seven. Sometimes you don’t show slide 10. You’re still tweaking it.

Yeah. I relate to that.

And your organization is structured, but not completely rigid. Everyone still knows each other in the company. It’s up to maybe 50—I think it maxes out at about 75 people. But every single person in the company knows each other. They’re all collaborating. You don’t need a lot of structure inside the company because there’s sort of culture in there to hold everyone together, right? And then you get to the third stage, which I call the PDF stage—where you’ve figured it out. You sell the same thing. Maybe you have three PDFs because you’re selling in three verticals. But you go into a client—this is the thing—and it never changes. Slide one is always slide one. Slide two is always slide two. Slide three is always slide three. And you have maybe a hundred people in your company. And by the way, now you have levels. So not everybody knows everybody. And as a CEO, I have my lieutenants.

My lieutenants have people working for them. And I sort of feel like everyone can manage—I don’t know—five, six, seven, eight people. More than that is difficult unless the roles are not very sophisticated. So you need this management layer, which separates the CEO from the rest of the organization. So you need a lot more structure. And as you go through these three phases—and they’re really different—a tragic thing happens. It happens all the time. The person who was so helpful in the whiteboard phase, who was your go-to person, they don’t make it in the third phase because they’re a generalist. They liked the chaos. They liked being able to have their foot, and they’ll complain to you. They’ll say, “Why aren’t you listening to me?” It’s an engineer saying, “Why isn’t sales listening to me?” Dude, you’re an engineer—stick to your knitting. Like, no. And this culture goes through every single company I’ve ever run. Most of them have gone through these three phases—small, medium, and large.

And one of the things I try to do with employees in these phases—and this is part of the framework—is to give them a huge amount of latitude to see if they can succeed in the phase. So, to give them the freedom—if you’re being blunt—to give them enough rope to hang themselves. And if you’re being kind, to give them the freedom to be who they are, to be the best they can be, and to support them—not control them. And so, if you are aware of this framework as you grow, and you give that latitude, and you hire smart people, then you can see which ones you keep and which ones you don’t. And honestly, the worst and hardest part of managing through growth is that selection and weeding-out process—of the people who worked in the first stage but don’t work in the last stage. So that is the only kind of framework for me that has stood the test of time. It has worked in media, worked in healthcare, and worked in various other places. Does that make sense to you? Does it resonate with you?

Absolutely. And I was just working on a chapter in my new book, and I was actually writing about this very idea—why some companies are never able to grow, because they are not able to make these decisions, these painful decisions, as you described.

Super painful—the worst. It’s the worst part. Firing people is the worst part of being a CEO. If you enjoy that, you’re a bad CEO. You want to have a positive environment, so you want to everyone have a good time. And when there’s growth, usually there’s incredible optimism and great culture. So any CEO who enjoys that process is not a good CEO.

Yeah, that’s so true. This is kind of a difficult thing. You have to be ruthless to some degree.

You do. Yeah. That’s why this framework has helped me—and it’s helped me be gracious and kind to people. Let’s just call her Jane, right? A totally fictitious person. But you can go to Jane in stage three and say, “Jane, do you remember how much you loved it in the first phase?” I’m going to give you some time here. You are going to leave, but I’m going to give you some time to work on a special project. But you also need to find your next startup—because you love that environment. And I am going to put this bureaucracy in place, and you’re going to fight it until the day you die. So I can’t have you here—I just can’t. I can give you this little thing to do and you can have some weeks to go do that and give you some time, but the framework helps you be gracious and helps you make those decisions as you grow.

That’s an amazing framework. This is really unique. We’ve recorded, I think, close to 400 episodes with different frameworks—and this hasn’t come up. Nothing similar has come up.

Woo-hoo.

Love it. So where are you now in your business? Which phase are you in?

I am in between the whiteboard and the PowerPoint phase. Maybe because I’m an optimist, I’m going to say I’m in the PowerPoint phase. But I know there’s still part of me that’s drawing things on the whiteboard. We have 12 people, so we’re just at the edge of growing out of that phase. I don’t have that layer in the middle. We have half a dozen clients. I suspect that by the end of this year, we’ll be fully in the PowerPoint phase. And it’ll be another 18 months after that until we get to the next stage—and that’s assuming we continue to grow. I mean, my whole raison d’être is to find these really special things, grow them, and make an impact. So let’s hope that happens.

Yeah, well, you’ve had some practice in your previous six CEO positions, so I’m sure you’ll figure this out. So what drives growth in your business?

Yeah, this goes a little bit back to phase one. So I’ve picked an area that’s growing by itself. I mean, AI—there are more and more models being deployed in hospitals. Hospitals are growing. The number of models deployed in them is growing at about 2.2 times the rate of the general population. So good for me. There are federal regulations coming that say you need to control what your AI models are doing. That’s also good for me. It’s a lovely day when regulation is good for your business—it usually isn’t. But it’s not unusual in healthcare. If you look at electronic health records, that was driven by government regulation and funding. So this is a little bit like that. Federal, state, and other institutions are driving this trend. And then there are things happening inside healthcare organizations themselves that we can tap into. I always think that when you’re selling, you should have a good story. So I’m going to tell you the kind of story we use.

When we meet with a chief information officer, we tell stories like the ones I’m about to share. And this really helps us tap into that growth. Because part of growth in a B2B environment is having a strong sales team, good engagement, and solid frameworks—like: do they have budget? Are you talking to the right decision-maker? All of those kinds of frameworks, which to me are more tactical—I’ve used a lot of them. But we go in and say things like: “Have you ever experienced a situation in radiology where a new model was released and no one told you about it—and now you have to monitor it?” This is happening. And they’re like, “Oh my God—yes.” And then they tell you a story about it.

And then you say, “What about that note from CMS?”—that’s the organization that runs Medicare and Medicaid, for those not in healthcare. “Did you hear that they’re coming down to audit some of your peers?” And they’re like, “Oh my God—we just got notice that we’re being audited.” And then—how about your board? How’s your board doing? Are they coming down and saying, “What are you doing in AI?” So you try to tell these stories and then you create this tension, where they have to grow and they have to control, and then that’s where we come in. We can help all of these companies manage all of these models. What we do—we have this product called ExplainerAI. We tap into the underlying data from the electronic health record—the EHR, or medical record. We tap into the models—the front end—and the logging files behind them. And then we can tell whether the model is exhibiting drift, and how it’s performing across different areas.

That could be geographic areas, or demographic areas. Is it performing the same with young men and older women? Is it performing the same over time? Is it degrading? Is it releasing personal health information when it shouldn’t? Is it hallucinating, if it’s an LLM? That’s what we do. And then we can send alerts out to people, saying, “Hey, listen, this model is making shit up right now, you need to deal with it.” And then they can talk to the vendor and handle it. So we’re in a good space. And so growth is, to some extent, this idea of a rising tide lifting all boats. I’ve picked an area that’s growing, so I can grow with it. And then part of it is being connected and having a good way of engaging with people who are buyers. And so we have these stories that we tell in our decks about how we help in these situations.

Have you had to pivot between the original idea and where you are?

Yeah, we have. And for anyone who’s listening and thinking, “Oh my God, I’m going to have to pivot,” I use Google as my favorite example of someone who just got so lucky. They were like, “We’re going to have this little thing that searches the internet,” and they never really changed—until they got so big they could do more. That is the exception, not the rule. And what’s interesting about the way we started is it’s still a core differentiator for us—we started with the ability to take data from an EHR, from a medical record, translate it, and store it in a common data model. It’s called OMOP. It’s the most common way that researchers structure this kind of data.

And we thought this technology would be widely adopted by researchers. We have contracts with people like Hopkins, Ohio State, NYU—big institutions—but it’s not big enough. It’s not going fast enough. What it does do, though, is for our ExplainerAI, it gives us the technology—it’s a moat—to connect to the source of truth, the electronic health record, so that you can get actual outcomes versus predictions. Many models cannot get the actual data out of the EHR. So they just say, “This is my prediction, this is my prediction, this is my prediction.” And over time—that’s fine, those are predictions—but how do they actually compare to what really happened?

Yeah. What actually happened? And because of where we started, we have a way of efficiently and accurately getting that information. So it is still the bedrock. But it’s definitely a pivot. And then you basically put an AI layer on top, and that’s great. And how did you know when to pivot? How do you reach that tipping point? How do you know this is the moment—you have to pull the plug on this because it’s not working?

First of all, I think on a personal level, I’m always late. So I think I could always have made this decision earlier. If I’m being self-critical at a high level. And I don’t think I have a clean answer—but I’ll tell you how I’ve done it. If you have a better way, I’d love to know. It’s about sales engagement. So you go to a hundred people, you have a hundred meetings, and you sell to two. That’s not good enough. It’s just not good enough. And those two are complaining. What you want to see in a product—and I think this is true of all great products, especially today—I use examples like Facebook and Tesla—is that products are pulled, not pushed. If you still find yourself, after nine months, pushing—and you don’t have the momentum where your product is being pulled—you’re wrong. You need your clients to be making referrals, and you need to be pulled into deals. In today’s advertising and marketing world, it’s too noisy.

Maybe back in the seventies you could do it, but now it’s just too noisy—especially in B2B. There are so many people selling to the same buyers that they need to hear about your product from others, have people around them recommending it, and pulling you in.

There’s some time—and I usually take closer to a year, which is long. It would be better for me to do it in six months or even three months. I haven’t found a way to do that where you pivot if you’re just not getting traction, basically.

Yeah, okay. I love it. So what’s one thing in your company that you’re trying to figure out right now?

One thing in my company that I’m trying to figure out right now is how to further ramp up sales. I’m cheating a little bit here, because I think we may already have it figured out—but leaving you with an unanswered question isn’t very helpful. So we were having—and still are, to some extent—problems getting ExplainerAI rolled out. People were interested in it, but they wouldn’t buy. So we tried to figure out why. And one of the things we found is this: For those of your listeners who may not know, healthcare is probably the largest portion of GDP in the country. Buyers are very large. We don’t always think about it this way, but if you do—everyone goes to the doctor. It affects 100% of the population. And these large institutions—a hospital is usually a multi-billion-dollar organization—and there are about 6,500 of them in the country. So we’ve got 6,500 multi-billion-dollar companies in this country.

It’s crazy, right? They don’t want to buy from small companies—they want to buy from big companies. This is one of the things we found out. So we get to the finish line, they say yes—and then no one tells you the truth, right? No one says, “I’m not buying from you because you’re small.” But we ended up figuring it out through triangulation. So we’ve been building partnerships. We started with Intel. We made some of our models work on Intel CPUs, and I’m actually pretty proud of that work. For the nerds out there—we’re working on Xeon 6 chips, the Granite Rapids chips—running locally deployed LLM ensembles. Think of it as models like Qwen and LLaMA running inside their chips—what I’d call small-to-medium language models, not large language models.

Up to 32 billion parameters, running on a CPU, not a GPU. So that’s a big deal. Intel loves us, and we’ve been able to leverage their ecosystem to have their partners sell our product. So now you’ve got HPE selling ExplainerAI. You’ve got Lenovo selling ExplainerAI. And probably my favorite partner—love you, ePlus, if you’re listening—I think you’re the best. They’re a Fortune 1000 reseller selling ExplainerAI. So now we have large companies selling our product, and that’s starting to come to fruition. Now, it’s not solved—my revenue isn’t going boom yet—because if it were, I’d be firmly in the PowerPoint phase, heading toward the PDF phase. But it’s looking really good, and I’m very excited.

Cognome Inside.

There you go. Cognome Inside—yes. Cognome Inside. Intel Inside—for those of you who remember. Yes.

Love it. Okay, so before we wrap up, I have one more question for you: What is a question that entrepreneurs should always be asking themselves?

I think the hardest thing about being an entrepreneur is dealing with the amplitude of the variance that happens inside it. There are incredibly high days, and there are incredibly low days. There are days when you don’t even want to get out of bed in the morning. You don’t have many clients, and one of them has just told you that you’re a complete moron. Even if you’ve got the best product in the world, if you’re in the whiteboard or PowerPoint phase, you’re going to make mistakes. You just are. No one’s perfect. And there are days when some combination of a client, an employee, or the product—something has failed, someone has left, something isn’t working—and you feel awful. So what I’d say to entrepreneurs is this: if you really are an entrepreneur, it is your personality that you can still get through those and wake up in the morning and say, I believe in this. I know I can do it. I can keep doing it.

And one of the things that I think separates an entrepreneur from someone who isn’t is this: When I go through these moments, I ask myself, “What’s the worst that could happen?” And I usually start with: “Is anyone going to die?” And the answer is almost always no. No one’s going to die. So it’s not that bad. And by the way, I remember giving that advice to a young person once—and I saw their face go white. And I thought, “Oh, that’s not an entrepreneur.” That’s the kind of person who hears that and thinks, “Oh my God, really? You think about the worst thing that could happen so you can deal with it?” And I’m like, yes.

Does that apply to the company itself? Is the company included in that “worst-case” question?

To me, the next step is: is an individual going to die? That’s a higher stake than whether the company is going to die. But yes—is the company going to die? That’s part of the thinking, because you’re going through all the consequences. Am I going to lose all my money? Is the company going to fail? Those are escalations of that thinking. But to me, company death is less tragic than a human death.

Yeah, true.

Not everyone might agree with that, but I think so.

You can try again.

Yeah.

Start another company.

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, your question was: what is a question that an entrepreneur should always be asking themselves? For me, turning that upside down and inside out—it’s: what’s the worst that can happen, and can you get through it? Are you able to get through it? Do you have the drive and the imagination to keep going? That’s the question I’ve continually found myself asking, as opposed to any other kind of existential question. And I think some of the other questions are not always the right way to look at it—like“Is this the best business?” Because there’s a very big difference between an entrepreneur and an investor.

An entrepreneur has to keep going, while an investor might quit. Investors, they’re playing the portfolio game. They can say, “That’s not working—I’m dropping that and keeping this.” As an entrepreneur, you can’t really play that game with your time. I mean, Elon Musk is running four companies—so okay, fine—but most of us aren’t. Most of us are running one or two, and we need more tenacity to make it work—to pivot or to find another path. That’s a really big difference between an entrepreneur and other kinds of people. And it’s why I’ve kept doing it. It comes back to the very first question: why do you do this? I can’t help myself. I just can’t. It’s what I like to do.

Yeah, the contrast is addictive—the contrast between near-death and near-Nirvana, right?

Yeah. I love it. I mean, you can’t have euphoria without depression. You wouldn’t know what it was—it would just seem normal.

Yeah, just a personal example of that—I was in Hungary, where I was born, for the election two weeks ago.

By the way, I’m so excited about that election, for many reasons.

The exhilaration that I felt—and that everyone else felt—was even greater than when the Berlin Wall came down, because the system was worse.

Yeah.

And if they hadn’t lived through that for 16 years, they wouldn’t have felt it. Now, we didn’t experience it directly—but still.

But even I was paying attention to a lot of things, and I was following that one very closely. Even I felt that sense of euphoria. I was like, “That’s great.” I was at the dinner table with my wife and kids—and I’m not Hungarian, it’s not affecting me. I mean, Viktor Orbán isn’t really having any effect on my life at all. Maybe he shows up at some conferences in the U.S., but still—not affecting me. But I’m sitting there at dinner like, “Did you hear what happened today? That’s great.” Anyway.

Awesome. I’m glad you’re on that side of the equation. James, if people would like to learn more—if they’d like to learn about Cognome and connect with you—where should they go? Where can they find you?

Yeah, so you can certainly go to cognome.com. You can email info@cognome.com. But if you’ve listened to this podcast, I’m always happy to hear from people. I answer every single email myself. And if you know my name—James Green—you can just put a dot in the middle and add @cognome.com at the end, and that will get to me. Delighted to hear from any of you—especially if you’re a CIO in a hospital, you should reach out.

Well, all those hospital CIOs—please call James, or at least send him an email. And for those of you listening—this was an amazing framework: from whiteboard to PowerPoint to PDF. Definitely relatable. And remember—if no one’s dying, it’s okay. You can always pivot and live to fight another day. So, James, thanks for coming—and thank you for listening.