343: Build Energy Instead of Burnout with Courtney Berry

Courtney Berry, President and Co-founder of Bandits & Friends, is driven by a desire to build an advertising agency where trust, creativity, meaningful relationships, and building energy instead of burnout replace bureaucracy and transactional client engagements. Inspired to create more opportunities for women in executive leadership and eliminate unnecessary bureaucracy, Courtney founded Bandits & Friends to prove there is a better way to build both an agency and lasting client partnerships.

In this conversation, Courtney introduces the Bandits & Friends Growth Flywheel: Choose the Right Opportunity, Create Clarity, Empower Ownership, Protect Your Point of View, and Build Energy Instead of Burnout. She explains why selecting the right clients is the foundation of sustainable growth, how clarity and ownership eliminate friction, and why agencies create the most value when they offer strategic judgment instead of simply executing requests. Courtney also explains how trust creates a self-reinforcing growth flywheel and how Bandits & Friends leverages culture, AI, and fractional talent to scale without sacrificing creativity or client relationships.

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Build Energy Instead of Burnout with Courtney Berry

Good day, everyone. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint Podcast, and today my guest is Courtney Berry, the President and Co-founder of Bandits & Friends, a full-service creative advertising agency that specializes in stealing attention for brands. Courtney, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having me. It’s good to see you.

Well, you have to tell us first about the choice of the brand—Bandits & Friends. I mean, bandit is not typically something that people would want to start building trust with. But obviously your brand is an award-winning one, so you must be doing something right.

That’s right. Well, we’re in the world of advertising. It’s all about branding, so we had to make sure that we had a good name to back it up. Our name, Bandits & Friends, is as much an operating ethos as it is a name. Bandits—we steal attention on behalf of brands. And Friends, that part of the equation, is how we refer to our clients. Share on X We actually try to never even use the word client in our agency because it creates a certain kind of them-versus-us mentality. And so that’s how we got to the name. We liked that it really infused the way that we operated as much as who we were at the end of the day.

Yeah, I like it. And how do clients react to being called friends? Do they take it at face value, or do you choose clients that you feel could fit—could become friends? How do you do that?

That is a great question. One, when we started, we fully thought the Bandits part of the equation was going to be the thing that potential clients really liked. We thought they would understand that that’s exactly what they’re going to an agency for. But what we have found is that it’s the Friends part of the equation that they have all sparked to so much more. Because sometimes it is a very transactional relationship between clients and agencies.

Sometimes there’s a strong difference of opinion when it comes to certain things, and that can create tension between clients and agencies. So when we talk about friendship, what we really mean is that the basis of all of it is trust. We have to trust each other in terms of the brief being right. We have to trust each other to have really honest conversations with one another to get to the real solution that we’re all trying to reach. Friends don’t waste each other’s money at the end of the day. We don’t want to waste our clients’ money, and we don’t want them to waste ours.

Also, friends are really looking for the best for each other. When we want the best for our clients, and they also want the best for us—because friendship really does go two ways—that's a really important component. Share on X And to your other point, not every client is a friend. Not every client really wants to play in that world of having a back-and-forth relationship, with give and take. If that’s not something they’re interested in, then at the end of the day, they’re probably not the right fit for us and our agency culture.

It really resonates with me. I used to be kind of an agency owner. It was an investment banking firm. Whenever we had a friendly relationship with a client who really trusted our judgment, who would let us lead, and who would not be receptive to divide-and-rule tactics from acquirers, then we could get so much more out of the transaction.

Absolutely.

We could negotiate harder because we knew they had our back, and we could really push the envelope to get the best results for them. If we didn’t have that, then it was much harder.

It’s so true. When you don’t have that kind of trusting foundation, there’s an element of fear. There’s an element of fear that they’re not going to do good work for me, or they’re going to overcharge me, or they’re going to do a bait and switch. So yeah, you’re exactly right. It’s the same kind of philosophy and mentality in order to get to better work for them and better outcomes.

Yeah. Yeah, love it. Love it. So let me ask you, what is your personal “why,” and how are you manifesting it in Bandits & Friends?

Yes. I had to think about this question a lot, Steve. Unfortunately, I don’t really have a positive answer for this one. I listened to all of your other podcasts, and I thought, “Oh man, mine’s a little bit of a Debbie Downer.” But I guess it is what it is. I started Bandits & Friends because I was really frustrated by two things. First, when I looked around the industry, there just weren’t many examples of women in real power.

In my last role before starting this agency, there wasn’t a single woman in the C-suite of the holding company that I was working for. Not one. There weren’t women making the biggest decisions. There weren’t many examples of the career path that I was looking for. At some point, I realized I could either wait for someone else to carve out that path or I could be the one to help create it for myself and help create a lot of the opportunities that I wish I had seen. So that’s the first one.

The second one—and I think it really manifests itself in an independent agency culture—is that I was really fed up with the bureaucracy of everything. There was too much energy in our industry being spent on politics, approvals, or process instead of the things that make our work happen: the people, the clients, and the work itself. So I really wanted to build a company that could move faster, trust people more, and focus on the things that actually matter.

What we’re being paid for is to focus our time and energy on our clients’ businesses and on creativity. Removing all the bureaucracy really allows us to focus on that. So I guess, to sum up those two things—and really 343: Build Energy Instead of Burnout with Courtney Berry Share on X

Yeah. I mean, Steve Jobs said there are two functions in business: marketing and innovation. In some ways, those two things are the same because if you don’t keep innovating in marketing, you’re not going to steal anyone’s attention. And you have to remove the bureaucracy to create a culture where people can be creative. That’s right. I love it. That is very interesting.

So tell me about this framework. This is a podcast about frameworks. Maybe it’s a little bit misworded in the description that it’s a shortcut. It doesn’t have to be a shortcut. It’s more of a mental model. It’s a way of looking at and simplifying the world that allows you to do good work or create that Bandits impact. So what’s a framework that you could share with the listeners?

Yeah. To your point, I think it’s more of a mentality and approach versus steps that we take because we don’t work in a very linear business. Often, things are running on parallel paths. The way that I try to approach things—and really what ultimately becomes the culture that we're trying to create at this agency—is removing friction to create momentum. Share on X Because if we’re ever static, we’re wasting our money or we’re wasting our clients’ money. Or, to your earlier point, it means that someone else is going to be able to steal attention before we can on behalf of the brands that we work for.

So, removing friction to create momentum. There are kind of five different components that I’ve thought about for this. The first one, which seems so basic, is that I think a lot of times we get so excited by an opportunity that we forget to stop and ask, “Are we choosing the right opportunity for us and what we can do for the brand?” Because not every opportunity that comes across our desk deserves that momentum. When we first get an RFP or an RFI, or some kind of pitch that’s going to happen, we really ask ourselves two things.

One: Can we make money? Sometimes, in this business, you can’t. The answer is no. The other question that we ask ourselves is, “Can we make great creative?” If neither one of those things is true, we move on, and that helps prevent wasting energy and wasting time. If we can’t answer those questions, then we ask more questions of the prospective client. A lot of times, those clients can’t answer either one of those questions, and in those cases, we also move on. So the first step is really about choosing the right opportunities that we think deserve momentum and deserve the stealing of attention. Share on X

The second point is clarity. I think that, in order to be a great leader, you have to be decisive. You have to be someone who is willing to make decisions when no one else can, or no one else is really tasked with making those decisions. So we’re all about creating clarity because momentum really dies in a world of ambiguity. We’re asking ourselves, “What are we solving for? Who owns this? What does success look like? What is the budget?” Don’t ever leave a meeting without knowing the next steps. I think this is also a step that a lot of people skip, or maybe shortchange, and then you’re going to pay for it later.

Third one is all around ownership. When you’re kind of just starting out, you’re just getting going. At the lowest level, people operate with the mindset of, “I do what is assigned to me.” Right? And then managers get to that managerial level, and they’re all about managing on outcomes. “I’m going to make sure this thing that is my responsibility is going to succeed.” Ultimately, what we’re trying to build are the highest-operating types of people who say, “If I see a gap, I close it.” It might be a gap where no one has assigned the task yet, or no one has even identified that it is a gap.

No one owns the problem, but they see it, they own it, and they move it forward. So we're really trying to create that culture where we don't wait for permission to solve problems, and we don't wait for those problems to even be identified. Share on X And that’s where we can really add value to our clients. We don’t wait for that ownership. We just kind of assume that it’s ours, and we run with it.

Love it.

The fourth piece is protecting our point of view. This is probably one of the most difficult. But as a creative agency, we really don’t exist to execute instructions. We exist to bring judgment to a brief. We talk a lot about partnership, and especially at Bandits & Friends, obviously friendship. But what that really means is that we’re not adding value if we’re simply taking instructions and just executing what’s already known. The best agencies come in to provide perspective and judgment because every single time there’s an opinion in the room, if we surrender our point of view, we’re no longer providing that value.

If you think about it, the Apple “1984” commercial, right? That almost didn’t air because Apple’s board hated it. They wanted to pull it. They didn’t want it to go anywhere. So if they had listened to every stakeholder concern, then arguably one of the best ads that a gazillion people are aware of would’ve never existed. It would’ve never aired. So that is a daily struggle and a daily debate for us. But I can’t even believe I’m going to say this on the record, but in our business, the customer is not always right.

We have to make sure that we can defend why we believe that or why we think that there might be a better path forward for them to consider. And last but not least, honestly, it's about having fun. I think a big part for us is that we have to build energy among both our employees and the clients that we're serving instead of burnout. Share on X Again, it’s not always easy, and it’s not just necessarily a cultural thing. It is very behavioral in terms of the way that we do things, the way that we operate under stress, and the way that we take feedback. But the work itself is hard enough already. I’ve never seen people do their best work in a miserable state or a miserable environment.

Again, that goes for both employees and clients. When we do talk about our clients, we often talk about one of our goals being to try to be the best part of their day, and to be the ones who are actually going to have the best meeting they've had that entire week. Share on X And if we only achieve that 50% of the time, at least it’s 50% more fun than they would’ve had otherwise. So, choosing the right opportunities, bringing clarity to what those opportunities are, empowering ownership, protecting our point of view, and having some fun while we’re doing it.

Wow. You really did a good job. I hope you won’t send me a bill for coming up with that. But I resonate with it. Just to your last point, we’re in the experience economy, right? People don’t just want to buy a service. They want to buy an experience. They want to feel good about the process of why they’re doing this ad or why they believe in this creative.

You want to energize them as well because they ultimately have to sell it. If they don’t believe in it and aren’t excited about it, then it’s not going to work as well. I have the same view with my clients. I typically see them once a quarter, and I know that I have to show up. I have to recharge them so that they come out of the meeting feeling like they want to tear apart the next quarter.

Yes. That’s right. Otherwise, what separates you from someone else who can tactically and executionally do the exact same thing that anyone else can?

Or AI, even. I mean…

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

I think the emotional part is our competitive advantage compared to AI. Yes. Love it. So, Courtney, tell me, what drives growth in Bandits & Friends?

It’s what I’ve been referring to, I guess, kind of throughout our whole conversation, which is, again, maybe on the surface, a little oversimplified. But for us, the biggest driver of growth is trust. Again, it goes back to our philosophy of treating clients like friends, not just because it's a nice thing to say, but because trusted relationships are where the best work happens. Share on X So that becomes the most scalable asset that we have. When you really think about it, creativity—the business that we’re in—is very vulnerable.

So first, you need trust in order to create great work. Then great work creates more trust with the clients you’re working with. That trust can lead to referrals. It can lead to recommendations, which is where a lot of our new business comes from. Those create more opportunities. We’re in a people business at the end of the day. When referrals create opportunities, we’re attracting more talent.

The talent that we have here wants to stay longer, and they want to give more because they’re working on fun and exciting opportunities, briefs, and brands. Then you have talent that creates better work. So it becomes this flywheel at the end of the day. It’s something that we really feel responsible for every time we’re taking on a new friend at the agency. Do we feel like we have the right kind of chemistry to build trust with them in order to create that flywheel? Our clients don’t necessarily hire us because we’re the cheapest.

They don’t necessarily hire us because we have the biggest team. They hire us because they trust our judgment, and they trust the way that we operate. Once that exists, everything starts to open up. Everything starts to move faster. When you can move faster, get to more work, and get that work out into the world, that continues to open up more opportunities and more growth at the end of the day. Share on X

Yeah, I love that. Do you find that you have to lead with your own trust to get trust?

That is such a great question. Yes. I think that we have to prove that we are trusting that they’re coming to us with all of the information that they can give us. I have to trust that they’re being transparent and truthful about the budget they’re giving us. I have to trust, to be honest, that this is a real opportunity they’re coming to us with, that has been approved by all the necessary parties, and that it’s something that’s actually going to move forward and happen.

It’s really hard to do when you’re picking up a call from somebody you’ve never worked with before. You have to assume good intent. At least starting from that place of positivity, I think can help to then create that path towards the ongoing conversations, us proving that we have trust in everything that they’re telling us, so that then they return that same favor to us.

Yeah. I mean, sometimes I get the criticism that I’m too trusting of people. Yeah. But it’s a little bit like optimism. If you don’t have optimism, then you have no positive vision to strive for. If you don’t trust people, you have no chance to earn their trust.

Right.

Maybe it’s vulnerability. It’s something to do with vulnerability.

Right. But you’re totally right. You definitely have to have those guardrails around trust to make sure that your trust and your optimism aren’t clouding your judgment at the end of the day. That is one of the hardest things, I think, that we have to do with new opportunities because you’re making a lot of assumptions. Sometimes those assumptions are stated, and sometimes they’re not, and you just have to roll with it. Obviously, you win some, you lose some. But hopefully, the more we do it, the more it becomes that positive net effect.

Yeah. So, Courtney, what is something that you’re actively trying to figure out in your business?

Well, I won’t talk about AI because I feel like everyone’s talking about AI, but that is definitely an obvious answer. Operationally, are we using all of the best tools that are out there? Are we staying compliant with our agency agreements and client agreements when we introduce some of those new AI tools? And then, of course, in the world of creativity, everybody’s really questioning how much we should be using AI in final assets versus the human part of things.

From our perspective right now, we’re interested in exploring. We’re interested in understanding how things can continue to help us remove friction from a process in order to get to those fast-moving flywheels that we want everyone at the agency to be operating on. But also, how do we make sure that we’re continuing to bring craft and fidelity to all of the campaigns that we’re working on? So AI is a very obvious one. I think the other thing we’re really trying to figure out at the agency is scaling. The more we’re trying to grow, the more we’re trying to scale.

The processes and behaviors that you have as a young agency can be quite different from those of a more mature agency with several hundred people. What we’re trying to instill is making sure that the behaviors and processes we’re creating and adopting now are scalable for the future. Sometimes that’s easy to figure out, and other times it’s something we really have to evaluate and take into consideration. For example, time sheets. That’s not something we care to do at an independent agency.

One, we think they’re wildly inaccurate. As somebody who used to work at a bunch of holding companies, my Wi-Fi would be turned off if I didn’t enter my time sheets within a certain amount of time. But I think they’re wildly inaccurate. We’re not lawyers. We’re not accountants. We don’t turn our brains off by the hour. We’re constantly thinking about the briefs that we have. I’ve been challenged multiple times on whether that’s a scalable behavior and process for the future.

When you’re several hundred people, you’re going to want to know exactly how much time so-and-so spent on which project. I just don’t think it’s necessary for us. I think there’s a level of organization that we can bring to the way we operate where something like a time sheet is going to be obsolete in our future. But it really all comes down to how we scale and whether we’re making the right choices every single day to support that scale and that growth.

Yeah, this is fascinating. Peter Drucker said, “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Some people say that the most enduring professional service businesses build a unique culture, and that becomes their competitive advantage. So they’re scaling the culture rather than the frameworks, the processes, or whatever else they have. That’s an interesting idea.

As an agency co-founder, what would your advice be to other professionals—maybe on Madison Avenue or wherever they are—working in professional services in some kind of leadership position and thinking about breaking out to do their own thing? What’s one thing you would advise them that maybe wasn’t obvious to you when you got started?

I think, first, if people are really thinking about it and weighing the pros and the cons, if you’re not willing to take a bet on yourself, then that’s a larger conceptual, philosophical conversation that you need to have with yourself. I think, at the end of the day, that’s one of the ultimate things that pushed me forward to start this agency. I wanted to take a bet on myself.

I felt like I had proven myself in a number of different opportunities and roles, and that I was ready for it. If it failed, then all right—that’s a problem for another day. Honestly, on a very tactical level, I think today’s world and the way that we operate in a remote and very fractional sense has been one of the most helpful things for us as an agency. I didn’t know about the world of fractional bookkeeping, fractional CFOs, fractional benefits and payroll providers, or fractional HR.

That creates so much back-office power for us. And it’s so important in terms of making sure that, again, we have behaviors and processes that can scale, where we don’t necessarily have to have all of those employees from an overhead standpoint. That has truly been eye-opening for me in terms of the world that exists outside of hiring full-time employees and this ecosystem that’s there that so many people can tap into in order to really have that firepower to show up in a very legitimate and credible way.

Wow. Okay. That’s great. You’re running a remote business, you have fractional people, and you’re leveraging AI without hurting the creativity, hopefully. That’s a model for the 2020s—or the 2030s, potentially. Fantastic. So if someone is yearning for the kind of creative juice that your team is bringing, and they have a product or service that they want to steal some attention for, where can they learn more about Bandits & Friends, and where can they connect with you?

Sure. Anyone can go to our website at banditsandfriends.com, or they can email us at hifriend@banditsandfriends.com. We’d love to have a conversation with anyone who’s ready to steal attention and operate with that mindset and philosophy of trust and friendship in order to get to the best ideas that are really going to help drive business results.

All right. Well, if you want to befriend Courtney and her friends at Bandits & Friends, then reach out to her. So, Courtney Berry, President and Co-founder of Bandits & Friends, thanks for coming and sharing your unique ideas with us. And if you enjoyed listening, stay tuned to our YouTube channel, follow us, and give us a review. Thanks for coming, and thanks for listening.